Midlife Uncensored

Swapping the White Picket Fence for Personal Freedom

• Joel Poppert • Season 1 • Episode 18

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Ever find yourself chuckling at the thought of life's expected milestones, like having kids or finding that 'perfect' partner, only to think, "Nope, not for me"? Well, you're in good company. Emanuella and I, peel back the curtain on our own journeys, sharing the realities and revelations we've found in forging paths less traveled. From sipping hot cocoa in snowy Breckenridge to swinging hammers on Denver construction sites, we swap tales that lead us to question the modern love conundrum: Is the single, child-free life really the road less lonely?

Trust us, this isn't your run-of-the-mill relationship gabfest. We're here to unpack the nitty-gritty of non-traditional relationships, the evolving desires for companionship, and the choice to embrace a career with vigor over the white picket fence dream. Whether you're navigating the murky waters of the dating world post-divorce, or simply curious about the healthy dynamics in a child-free lifestyle, our candid conversation shines a light on the diverse ways to pursue happiness and fulfillment. And for those who've wondered about the blurred lines between friendship and romance, we're reclaiming 'situationships' as an honest, valid form of connection.

As we wrap up this heart-to-heart, don't forget to join our tribe. We're building a community where every unicorn, sasquatch, and in-betweener can find solace in shared stories and laughter. So hit that follow button, slide into our DMs, or shoot us an email. We're eager to hear your take on the beautiful, messy, and utterly human journey of finding love and contentment in a world that's constantly redefining what those even mean. Until we chat again, keep living your truth — with or without that plus one.

How to Engage with Us

Thanks for joining the Owning Alone community, I certainly appreciate you!

Speaker 1:

Hey y'all, you're listening to another episode of the Only Loan Podcast, hosted by your favorite middle-aged Sasquatch, joel Popper, aka Poppy, and Denver's very own Italian unicorn, emanuella Messoneo. Welcome back to the Only Loan Podcast. Before we start, I want to welcome back all our listeners. Thank you again for chiming in. I've been keeping tabs on you all and I know some of you guys are subscribing. Some of you are following Sometimes.

Speaker 1:

Some of you guys are new listeners, but I wanna remind you that it's super important, as we grow this podcast, to subscribe, to rate, to share with your friends, share on socials. Any sort of like exposure we can get is great. You can find us on Instagram at owning alone. We're sharing the Instagram now. So if you saw the post this morning about sexual positions for women on their own, that wasn't me, that was Manuela, but I appreciate it. You're welcome. Wasn't me, that was Manuela, but I appreciate it. You're welcome and you can email us at Joel at owningloanpodcastcom. You can also find us on our personal Instagram. So please take some action rate us, follow us, subscribe, share with your friends. We're pretty cool, we think so. So.

Speaker 2:

I think I'm cool. I know Manuela is cool anyway.

Speaker 1:

Emanuela, I haven't seen you in a while. You just got back from Breck. How are you doing?

Speaker 2:

I'm good. Yeah, it was a snowy week up in Breckenridge. Note to self don't go in early May.

Speaker 1:

It could be like 80, not 80.

Speaker 2:

It could be like 50. But no, it was not, it was cold.

Speaker 1:

I saw your pictures every day on instagram. I'm like man, I'm glad I'm not in denver, yeah, but it was like a really good excuse to just yeah, to drink exactly.

Speaker 2:

We worked half days, which was nice. So we worked the mornings and then went to the grotto, sat in the hot tub, got some wine, took a nap, read a book and then watched a bunch of sports in the evening. Tub, got some wine, took a nap, read a book and then watched a bunch of sports in the evening, made friends with like all the bartenders and all the locals. They don't want to be called. What did I say? Oh shoot, I'm going to totally forget now. I was like the townies or something, and they were like no, we're locals.

Speaker 1:

The townies, the natives, Colorado.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, they were like we're locals, the townies, the natives, colorado, yeah, so I had a really good time. A lot of places were closed so I got to try out some new spots up there, but I love being up there, so it was a nice week.

Speaker 1:

That's awesome. No, I'm sorry I missed it, but I I committed to helping my very good friend that lives here, that I grew up with and I'm very close to his family. We grew literally like I grew up in a very small town in Lake Mills, wisconsin, 3,000 people, and this is a friend that is. He's the head of the, he's the head trainer for the Rapids, so he's building a deck in his backyard, he's got two little kids and his family was here and his dad, so it was just like old times, like building a deck getting yelled at by not my dad but somebody else's dad.

Speaker 2:

But deck getting yelled at by not my dad but somebody else's dad but is this the one? Does he have a sister too? Yeah, okay. Yeah, they're like my family, they're like you told me about them.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, aaron was two years younger than me and yeah, no, it was a lot of fun Catch up and his mom was here, and then his little kids are like my niece and nephew. And then we went to the Rapids game and it was a very exciting game. So the Rapids scored six goals in the first half but only four of them counted. It was weird. There were some offsides calls and they got a little robbed and then the second half they just shut down.

Speaker 2:

That makes a really exciting game then.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah Cool. That's one of the bonus points.

Speaker 2:

How was the weather here? Ps?

Speaker 1:

It rained a lot. Oh okay, it rained a lot.

Speaker 2:

It was nice.

Speaker 1:

I mean, this is a fun time here.

Speaker 2:

I think I'd rather have snow then.

Speaker 1:

For those of you that don't live in Colorado, raining days are actually nice.

Speaker 2:

I like days where I don't feel so guilty just sitting at home editing a podcast, or or working, or just being in your PJs just drinking alone reading my book. Yeah, not coming to Breckenridge, not coming to Breck, that's fine, it's fine, no, I appreciate it.

Speaker 1:

So before, I want to keep the banter up, but I think it's important to let our guests know that at some point we're going to get into a topic. The topic for today is why more men and women over 30 are increasingly choosing a life without kids and or a committed partner. So we're going to get into that in a few minutes here. But yeah, so what else is new? Any new updates with your dating life?

Speaker 2:

How's that going? It's a shitstorm.

Speaker 1:

Why is it a shit storm?

Speaker 2:

the guy was seeing resurfaced and then that imploded worse than the first time, but yeah, just in the last week oh so, guy you yeah, yeah, yeah. And then that imploded again yeah, not an yeah. So I don't want to go into details right now.

Speaker 1:

It's too fresh.

Speaker 2:

I'm like no, it's fine, I brought it up. Um, so I last time we talked, I told you I was thinking about going off the apps. I'm officially off the apps. I think I need to regroup. It's good to do that every now and then, at least I. That's my mo, like I other. Everybody can have their own style, but that's me.

Speaker 1:

I need to regroup no, I get that, so I what's happening on your end my end. Um so, girl, that I ended up going on five dates with record yeah, record. Well, that's over great.

Speaker 2:

So I feel like I keep steering you down like a bad path. Oh, I'm happy.

Speaker 1:

I'm happy to have made it to five days. I feel like I feel like you know she was a wonderful girl. I appreciated all the time I spent with her. We had some, we had a really fun time. The the last date we made dinner for her at her house and it was a lot of fun. And then I got the textbook template. Blah, blah blah, you're great, yeah, not feeling enough in connection, wish you the best sort of thing, and I was like.

Speaker 2:

You know what Appreciate you and that was that At least there's no beating around the bush and no wondering, I don't know Like. At least there's that I mean she's looking for.

Speaker 1:

We never know, but there was, we got along really well. There was, it wasn't. These aren't breakups either. Just okay, we gave it five dates, which I appreciate. So I'm back on the apps, but I'm not going to lie, I'm feeling a little about dating. I'm really pouncing on opportunities to hang out with my friends or strangers.

Speaker 2:

That aren't girls.

Speaker 1:

Oh damn it, You're not a stranger. I'm always down to hang out with you oh you said not girls, though.

Speaker 1:

So a guy that I had done some river cleanup work and been on the river with texted me. He's married, got a couple kids and stuff, so he's really busy. But he texted me out of the blue the other day. It was like, hey man, let's grab a beer. And then he sent me some stuff on marketplace because he knows I'm trying to get into it, try to get a smaller raft. So he sent me some stuff to check out and we're going to go get a beer on Monday. So stuff like that. I'm like, yeah, man, and then helping my buddy with the deck and his family, yeah just filling my time with that and I've been so busy with work and my whole thing is.

Speaker 1:

Before I got divorced and my dad died, I was like I was stuck, I wasn't working at 100%, I wasn't focused. I was, you know, blah, blah, blah. But now I'm super focused. I'm launching this new company. You know blah, blah, but now I'm super focused. I'm launching this new company.

Speaker 1:

My partner and I recommitted to each other, so my priorities are just a little different and I think it leads into the topic we're talking about, of like why people are choosing to the modern dating situation is it is what it is, don't like. This isn't the topic, but I choose not to get frustrated by it, even though it isn't fucking infuriating. And it is frustrating and I'm not going to sit here and tell you that I believe someday that I'm going to end up in a first of all, getting married again, or in a committed in a very serious relationship.

Speaker 2:

I know it's going to happen.

Speaker 1:

I'm not like stupid that I think it's not going to happen.

Speaker 2:

Can't force it though.

Speaker 1:

I understand to all our listeners like how you're feeling. I feel the same thing. It feels unrealistic to enter into a relationship these days with how things are, but at the same time I'm also like I'm situationships are coming by, like I'm not not having sex. I'm like enjoying my life, I'm having fun, I'm okay with it. I don't feel like I need that and so I'm. While that's not happening, I guess I'm making sure that my friendships are growing, that my career is growing, that my life work-life balance is appropriate, that I'm having meaningful conversations with people. So I'm fulfilling myself in other ways and I think other people are learning to do the same thing. But I absolutely won't be that guy or girl. I can't be that girl. I'm absolutely not gonna be that guy on the threads. That's like fuck denver, fuck dating if I'm gonna be alone forever and fuck women and blah, blah, blah like it's.

Speaker 1:

No, it's just, we're all like I can't take whatever you need.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, like you can be frustrated or not, or just need a break.

Speaker 1:

Just because you're like I'm gonna focus on something else my question to you, though and this is something that, like this, is something that kind of crosses my brain a lot is is it middle-aged dating, because I hadn't dated for eight years, or is it modern dating is just fucked, or is it middle age and that's what I'm trying to just fucked, or is it middle age and that's what I'm trying to figure out, or is it something, some combination of the two?

Speaker 2:

It might be a combination. I do think that there's. I think there's some level of. It gets maybe a little bit harder as you get to middle age age, because even if you've healed from past relationships, there are still things that you've taken away from that and learned from it that you're going to be looking out for in future relationships, and I think it just becomes harder and harder to find, not only like don't knock over here, not only like you're distracting me.

Speaker 1:

Keep going. If I do this, does this help?

Speaker 2:

No, it doesn't help at all. I'm like watching you.

Speaker 1:

It's all audio. They don't know what's happening. It's fine, I can be completely naked, they won't even know.

Speaker 2:

Well, thank God that I'm not because the camera's on me.

Speaker 1:

Oh picture, look at it here. I'll turn it on myself.

Speaker 2:

Okay, good, I think we come into these like relationships or experiences with I hate to say baggage, because I feel like there's like a negative connotation with it. But with having these experiences and that becomes okay, I don't want this or I do want that, and so we become maybe pickier. So not only do you have to line up are you attracted, do you get along, do you have things in common but also do you want the same things, do you have the same values? Do you? Are you in the same place? Have you healed enough that you're like somewhat secure, even if you have these anxious or avoidant like tendencies? There's so many things that have to line up and so you can also just be in a very different place and have different priorities place and have different priorities. Yeah For relationship.

Speaker 1:

What were you yeah?

Speaker 2:

But like, or even not, a relationship, if you're not looking for that and you're just looking for some situationship or whatever. I assumed your question related to dating apps. What did I misunderstand?

Speaker 1:

your question. I don't see the difference anymore. I don't think there's just people running around that aren't they're either. If they're not on the apps, they're dealing with the repercussions the whole environment has been. Oh yeah, it doesn't matter where you meet. I think all those things apply, so I think some of it is also but what you're talking about and I don't want to like, don't lose your thought but what you're talking about is this. That's what you're pinpointing. The problem is that everybody's expecting the stars to align around these individuals yeah, we're gonna create a relationship, whereas historically, relationships were built on the honeymoon period.

Speaker 1:

Good sex attraction, some commonality and we'll make it work yeah which we're watching all those relationships deteriorate under the environment of social media and everything else. But, like before social media and the internets and all the things, people didn't have all the influences and they just made it work. They were just as miserable as everybody else in their relationships but, like they did, they stayed together for decades. My parents were married for 50 fucking years, which is crazy to me when I can't even get past five dates, whether I want to or not, and I'm a married. I was married at one point, which I did cut you off. Did you lose your thought?

Speaker 2:

I was just. Maybe I did lose that thought and we can just keep going. We will fall in love some days We'll find our people. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

You're out there, I know you're out there.

Speaker 2:

They are. They just need to get divorced. No, I'm just kidding.

Speaker 1:

They will, don't worry.

Speaker 2:

I think if you talk about like you can be their side piece.

Speaker 1:

It's great.

Speaker 2:

That's a whole nother because if they don't get divorced, they're definitely going to cheat yeah that's what I was gonna say is so I think what you're describing is like the relationship was built on this like honeymoon period and people would just decide to stay together, and so some of it could be. We have social media and there's like really easy ways to connect and find other people, so now it's very easy to just say I'm done, I'm out. This should be better, whereas in the past maybe people didn't feel like it was easy to find a replacement for that person and they probably didn't want to be alone like on their own. So, yeah, it's very difficult. And then I think there's two some people that just stay in the marriage but do have a side piece, or everybody has their own like way of doing things, side fantasy or pulling me.

Speaker 1:

So I mean, I think that Sorry, this is, this is all like again. Like the description of this, where we're going with this podcast, is like what's traditional and what's not. I think we're trying to normalize and discuss the things that are non-traditional, like all the people with white picket fences and two children that are married and happily married, quote unquote. The people with white picket fences and two children that are married and happily married, quote-unquote. I don't know that we're speaking to them or maybe they're listening, but the reality is we're trying to navigate this environment of talking to people that chose not to get married, that are divorced, like me, that are figuring out.

Speaker 1:

What do you? What is your path now? What's appropriate, what's not appropriate? What's appropriate for me I figured out is because whatever, I fucking feel like, because I know myself very well, so I'm making decisions for myself based on the foundation I built for myself. We've got people that are traveling around the world. We've got people that chose, that are intentionally choosing not to have kids, women that are purposely like cutting their I don't know what the term is the male, female version of it, they can tie their tubes.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, tying their tubes so that they don't get pregnant, because they don't want children for whatever reason, whether it's they don't want the financial liability, they don't want to be anchored down by a child, whether they just have zero desire. And what I'm seeing and this is where we're going, let's go into it is that there seems to be a very significant backlash to the choices that are being made that aren't traditional and let's. So what led me to think about this topic and you and I chat about this a little bit was there was a post that ended up in my Instagram thread, and the post was men in their 30s and up with no kids or wife, how is your life? And it was posing the question, right, and question.

Speaker 2:

Right and no wait. That's the one I sent you in response to the one that you sent there was, and it just happened to be the same day.

Speaker 1:

Oh really, yeah, it elicited the same kind of yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2:

But yes, there was another one about like why are people over 30, why are men over 30 choosing to be alone or choosing a single life?

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Instead of a committed partner. Yeah, and then I happen to see something similar that day.

Speaker 1:

Which I think is a common, if you're in our world of you know no white picket fences, you know.

Speaker 1:

lack of children or whatever, divorce, single, whatever in our middle age, like you know what this is elucidating to like in online dating and stuff. Mind you to our listeners that we're not just talking about men here. We're talking about why men and women over 30 are increasingly choosing a life without kids and or a committed partner. But I want to read some of the comments that I took snapshots of to understand sort of the projections from the white picket fence people, the animosity or whatever you want to call it, why we're just living a different. We're just living a perfect, we're just living a different life. Right, we live in. Yes, sometimes it feels like an alternate universe, like it is a little different. It's worth talking to. But this is this podcast is oriented towards these people. Anyway, one of the comments you can never truly be mature until you value somebody more than yourself. False, you can never value somebody else until you value yourself Most of all.

Speaker 2:

Opposite. Yeah, I'm a strong believer.

Speaker 1:

I'm not a strong believer in trickle down economics, but I'm a strong believer in trickle down love and value. If you love yourself, you'll trickle down to everybody else, including your children you really there's a lot of I think, a lot of re.

Speaker 2:

I don't know if it's research, but a lot of things that I see in books or content that you can only love someone else as much as you love yourself.

Speaker 1:

If yeah, otherwise you're yeah oh, okay, there you go anyways, all right. Yeah, this one's even better. Men around 30 years old with no wife or kids is just a boy. Sorry, this is the truth of life, okay all right.

Speaker 2:

Wow, geez, somebody. Okay Scarves in the next comment Somebody got burned maybe.

Speaker 1:

And then the response. There was a lot of responses 200 of them. What's wrong with the boy that pays the bills on time?

Speaker 2:

Oh my.

Speaker 1:

God. And then somebody else was. I tried to reach out to my friend who meets this criteria for a comment, but he's in the Caribbean on vacation. I love it. What was this one and boring, other than I have money and can do whatever I want.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Which is true, and you're either single and lonely or married and bored. Choose your poison wisely. So this is a fun one. You're right, I'm not going to be the guy that goes on these threads and be like my life is great, blah, blah and I'm having so much fun and dating. Super fun it's. Yes, when you're not married, you don't have children, and particularly when you're middle-aged, life can be a little boring and it can certainly be lonely. But I've been married and I was in a relationship that didn't work and that can be very difficult too, and lonely in its own way. And it is choose your poison. I find a lot of comfort and control being single and putting the bar super high on a relationship. And yes, I have way more money and I don't have to talk to somebody about how I spend it and I get to choose my decisions.

Speaker 2:

And I sleep in my bed alone.

Speaker 1:

Talk about freedom and like, yes, it's nice, but it's lonely and without children you have to work harder to find some purpose. But then again there's a lot of people that have children, that make their children their purpose, which most of the time is not healthy either. Like we're all at the core of it. We're all trying to figure out what it's, what the purpose of living is, and my take on it is there is no fucking purpose. Like we just live. We don't have a purpose. We weren't born to have a purpose. There's not. There wasn't some sort of choose your purpose orientation when we became adults. We just, we're all just doing our best, but stop the hostility, stop projecting. That's what I, because when I read through this comment stream there was 3,000 comments.

Speaker 2:

There was a lot of opinions. The thing was is that?

Speaker 1:

people that were married with children were very viciously attacking people that don't have children, that aren't married, and it wasn't reciprocating. The people that weren't married and didn't have children weren't like, hey, fuck you, my fucking life is great, blah, blah, blah, fuck you. It was like a lot of fuck you for not having children. Your life sucks.

Speaker 2:

You're a boy, you're not a man, because you don't have children and it wasn't reciprocating so there's definitely like the people who chose to not have children, or were more of just no, this is what I chose, or whatever. There's more freedom, or whatever the reason was. But it wasn't like attacking, they weren't attacking.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, they weren't they were making a point to say I'm happy, yeah, I'm content and my mental health is good. Were there a couple one-off ones? Sure. But for the most part, there was a huge. What I observed which I think is worth talking about is stop making yourself feel better by attacking the people that chose a different life. Making someone else feel bad, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:

I think there's a lot of people that felt like societal pressure to get married and have kids, and so maybe if that was the reason why we have a visitor, maybe there's a reason why they know Great to myself, maybe there's a reason why they had the or sorry. So the reason why they had kids wasn't necessarily because they actually wanted to do that, but it was like the societal pressure, and so there probably is a little bit of like resentment towards people who chose not to do that or who knows what the reason is. But it is, I think, very demanding to be a parent and to be married and to be really committed to that. I think it takes a lot of work whether you're married or not. But just having children I could see that and if you've like, when I was in college I was I was like, yeah, I want to get married and have four kids at least. Oh my god, I wanted like a soccer team, basically, or maybe a hockey team yeah but I think that that brings up a good point.

Speaker 1:

And so then, the sort of naivety, or that people that all these people that decided that all these people that don't have children and didn't get married chose not, to have children and chose not to get married.

Speaker 1:

Like that was the biggest thing. For me were a little bit of frustration and anger, because I was married for four years. I was with the girl for eight years. We tried to have children for two and a half years and it didn't work out. We got divorced, Our relation, we needed to get divorced. It was the right decision to make and I was left in middle age deciding, choosing that whether I mean I can choose to have children for the for a long time if I want to. But I've chosen for the most part not to push that one because I feel old enough where, like, having a baby doesn't look fun.

Speaker 1:

And like don't get on me because and, by the way, there's 8 billion people on this planet. I am a huge fan of people not having children, because it saves the planet.

Speaker 2:

I think it's hard because there are some people that had kids because they really wanted to and other people that just did it because that was like the societal pressure or maybe they chose the wrong partner.

Speaker 2:

I don't know why those people that were so frustrated with that were speaking out, but there's clearly like a little resentment for, like, maybe that people that don't have that responsibility or they think they just chose that, and it's hard because there are a lot of people that don't have kids, that wanted to have kids, and so it's not always like just a choice or this luxury, but it's like where life lands, you and you make the best of it, and so that's a whole nother topic that we should go into. I think I have it on my list anyways. That's a whole nother topic that we should go into I think I have it on my list anyways of just that actual decision of whether or not to have kids or like how, how, maybe you and I even got to this stage of not having kids but, it's not always just a choice, I think, is what you're saying.

Speaker 2:

Like sometimes it's just the cards that are dealt to you and so to be like to feel like attacked by those comments, I could see why it would rub the wrong way.

Speaker 1:

I can get worked up when I go down the rabbit hole, because I think that the sort of topic was why, why? Are people choosing that and I think you know I chose to get married and I gave love a shot and I came out the other end and here I am, I'm 43, get married.

Speaker 1:

I gave love a shot and I came out the other end. And here I am, I'm 43 years old and relationship, the word relationship, committed partner, children they don't make, they don't. The bar for a committed partner is high, it's just different. Now I would love to find a partner, but I think that the way that I'm feeling and I think the way that you're feeling, is that we've gotten to this place where we're pretty happy alone. Is it lonely? Sure? And I can't speak for you, but I feel like, and I can't speak for you, but I feel like I don't feel like there's a missing piece. I feel like there's, it would be nice to have, but if it doesn't come into my life, I've figured out like this happiness everywhere else where, like, if that person comes into my life which is the crazy thing, because I date like one different person every fucking week, If you think somebody would stick, but like it doesn't, and I think it's because I'm really happy being alone and I think all these people are very happy being alone.

Speaker 2:

We're just making the best of whatever. I think you, though, were married, you were trying to have kids, and it didn't work out that way, and that's OK, and now you have a choice to make. So to also say that people over 30 or 40 are increasingly like choosing to be single or not have kids, like it's also a Siri. It's not always just like they chose that when they were in their twenties or whatever. Like it comes through a series of experiences, right, and some people it didn't happen. Some people it like.

Speaker 2:

For me, it was I knew enough with the people I was with that I that they probably weren't the right match for me long-term to have children, even though that's what I wanted. And I didn't want to just have children, to have children, I wanted to have a family, like I didn't want to marry somebody to have kids and then be like screw it, if it doesn't work out, we can get divorced. No, I wanted, like, the family unit, like it needed to all. If I didn't think I was going to last with that person. Yeah, exactly so, but because I didn't have a great picker of men at the time, like it, just it didn't work out that way.

Speaker 2:

So I think that's okay and but like it, I don't know, like for me, if it was necessarily a choice because, like I said, I wanted to have four kids and then it was three, and then it was two, and then it was one, and now it's, they can have kids I don't wish for kids. And now I don't know if that's even going to happen.

Speaker 1:

So I'm like ah, maybe Are you fucking kidding me. No, so I finished Bad Therapy.

Speaker 2:

Oh gosh, I want to hear about this I recommend that everybody listen or read this book. Okay, good it is a very.

Speaker 1:

There's a whole generation that's fucked and the parents fucked them Literally, fucked them, literally, fucked them. This book is worth reading because there's a part of the book where the author talks about how, basically, parents have made parenting look miserable Because they've taken away children's abilities and isolated them from adapting to the real world, to all the things We've given them a mental health encyclopedia to diagnose themselves and all this stuff. We've made parenting look miserable, we've made it very expensive and the reason that a lot of people are choosing not to have kids is because they get old enough. Where they get so like what I see happening is, people are having children.

Speaker 2:

Then people are watching people have children and get to an age where you're like that doesn't look. I don't want that. Yeah, that doesn't look fun and it doesn't look.

Speaker 1:

It's like everybody keeps telling us that you don't know once you hold your baby, blah, blah, I get that, blah, I get that, I get that. But I'm saying that this is why people are choosing a life without kids is because people are making it look so miserable.

Speaker 2:

I think it's hard because there are the same could be said for marriages, right Like well that's the other part, is not everybody. But it's out there and it's everywhere.

Speaker 1:

But it's out there and it's everywhere.

Speaker 2:

And it can be frustrating to see that, and that may be why a lot of people are and end up not having kids, or yeah.

Speaker 1:

Can you tell me, sorry, I keep it. It's okay, I want to stay on topic, because I want to say on this fact that, Because I because there's a thing here and there's can you describe to me the relationship with kids that you think is firing on all cylinders? Do you know these people I have some okay, and what are they doing?

Speaker 2:

and what is it statistically relative to all the other people that have kids in your life, that are in college and they've always prioritized the in my opinion, from what I've observed the relationship with each other over the children, because it creates a dynamic in the home that, like we talked about, like reciprocal, like how you can't give love to someone else you don't have for yourself. I don't think you can really give and raise children if you don't like focus on that relationship with your spouse either. So I think that always has to be like top priority is yourself, your spouse, your children, whatever. I guess order it comes after that work. Obviously you need a livelihood to support your family and stuff, but I don't know.

Speaker 2:

It's hard Like the priorities get yeah, but this in. In each of these couples the income is different, but they've made it work and they that in a way that supports enough. They struggle. There's kids, they're expensive, but they're way more expensive, they're expensive and you can make them as expensive as you want to make them, or you can be thrifty and you can do things. You know that you can still raise really good kids that don't need to have every single thing either. I don't know. I think there's.

Speaker 1:

But by being thrifty with your children if they're in an environment where the rest of the children aren't thrifty, you created now mental health crisis for those children.

Speaker 2:

You can't, you gotta, look, you gotta. This is what I'm saying, it's all.

Speaker 1:

It's very difficult, you created now a mental health crisis for those children. You can't, you gotta, look, you gotta.

Speaker 2:

This is what I'm saying it's all. It's very difficult, it's all very connected. I mean I went to a private school and yeah, so I understand the dynamic of I had very you know, my parents were both educators, so like we didn't have, we certainly did not have the highest income.

Speaker 2:

Probably maybe we have the lowest income in my school, I don't know, but all I know is I had people getting brand new cars delivered to their driveway when they turned 16. And you know, my still best friend and I were hustling working jobs to save up for our stuff. I think it just it's all different and I guess for our scenario, for my scenario, like my parents because they were educators wanted us to go to private school because they felt like we would get a better education or whatever the reasoning was, so that was where they really spent their money. But going back to our topic of why people aren't having kids, I think it's hard.

Speaker 2:

There's just there's a lot of keeping up with the Joneses and there's a lot of people that raise their kids that way and it doesn't look fun. And they got married to maybe have kids and so maybe it's also starts with the reason they got married. If they only got married because of that honeymoon period and they wanted to have kids and it was like your means to the end I understand, and I'm not trying to say my life's better than your life, blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 1:

I'm what I'm trying to do accentuate the mindset of our peers that have chosen, or not chosen, to be here, and their rationale and how they go forward and like they're watching you raise your kids and it doesn't look fun to them. What I'm saying is just like what I'm trying to.

Speaker 2:

grass can always be greener perspective. Grass can always be greener, of course. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

And if I had a child right now, I'd be very happy with my child and love my child and feel like my life would be so joyful to have a child. And I still haven't taken it off the table. Like I said, what I'm trying to say is that choosing not to bring children into the world, for whatever reason, is absolutely not selfish. It's a choice and they're doing it because that's what they want. They want to focus on their career, they want to travel, they want to have. They don't want, like when you take children out of the picture.

Speaker 2:

Committed partners now takes on a different meaning, right you're not going to be with someone just for the.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, having sex is easy enough. Like, having sex is easy enough when you're like you can have it with yourself too. Yes, you can have it with yourself. According to the post this morning, yes, masturbation, but particularly at middle age, like all the fucks go out the window and they're just like, hey, let's have sex, okay, cool.

Speaker 2:

So like why? Okay, so why are we at this point? I think, once you get to a certain point in life, if you're not married by 30 or 40, and there's a big, at least for women, 30 or 40 is a big, that's a big milestone because you're still trying to make babies in that window. So it might be like over 40 for women.

Speaker 1:

But I think a lot of women are choosing not to have babies. I think that's part of it.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I chose. I at least gave myself permission to not have babies at age 27.

Speaker 1:

Because? So let me ask you this because I don't have. I'm not a female, I don't have a vagina, but Are you sure?

Speaker 2:

If I did, I'd play with it.

Speaker 1:

Babies are way more of a burden for a woman than they are for a man.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

I mean typically, if you're divorced, you're going to have more custody Babies. Children need their mothers more than they need their father. They get all fucked up when a father's not involved, but they do need their mother, and so do you think there's a generation of women out there that are choosing not to have baby because they don't want that sort of burden.

Speaker 2:

I would need to talk to some maybe younger people about that. My choice was more out of frustration at the time we're all about speculating on this show, but I think maybe some of it is. The men that are available are not rising to the occasion. I don't know.

Speaker 2:

It's one theory To what occasion? It's one theory, it's one theory. Okay, so we've talked about like women are making more money if men feel more inferior. If this is the dynamic that could this could be the answer to some of this out there is maybe the men aren't bringing that sort of like provider protector energy to the table, and if a woman's not getting that, even if she's earning a lot of money or successful or independent, like, it's not going to want to make you have babies with that person.

Speaker 1:

But do you think it has anything to do with the fact that social media has made that box that men need to fit in unattainable?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, for sure, I don't know.

Speaker 1:

There's problems with the younger generation, but I'm talking about people our age and younger, like 30 to 43. Like I don't know that those men didn't show up. I think things changed and I think that there was this big movement in the middle of it all that confused the dynamic between men and women and we're there's a whole generation that's clawed in that claw it's changing.

Speaker 2:

It's really hard because I think that there is like a really big shift and even, just like the comment that I made, that's just making a lot of generalities and not really probably fair to that generation or men or women in it.

Speaker 1:

I know what you're saying, that there's. So this is why I enjoy having you as a co-host. A female co-host is because I can tell you that I don't feel this way of a man and I know what men feel and their thought process and what women feel like. Is that part of the reason why nobody's committing and having? Another reason why people aren't committing and having children is because we're oil and water these days.

Speaker 1:

We haven't figured out. There is an instinctual dynamic between men and women that exists. We have not done a good job of taking that foundation, that need, the desire, the instinctualual stuff, the stuff that's wired into us chemically, like really in our dna, yeah, and thoughtfully brought it into the modern age.

Speaker 1:

Yeah right, we fucked that up big time absolutely, we've got women that are for every right are now succeeding in all different terms, that are being told by a group of women that no man should ever dictate anything in your life, and blah, blah, blah. And then we've got men that are feeling like failures, even though they're actually succeeding at all relative terms, that are trying to date a woman that's their equal in all different terms, and they're being told that they shouldn't be together butting heads because they and then they're not figuring out how to.

Speaker 1:

they're not. What they need to do is they need to walk into their own home and make their decisions for themselves and what works, and this whole idea of alpha and beta and blah, blah, blah and all this stuff like, throw it out the window. If you meet somebody that you like, be strong enough, have strong enough convictions and be vulnerable enough to have the conversation with each other to build your own goddamn life, and stop listening to all the fucking noise, because it's the noise of social media and your friends and all this stuff that is fucking the shit up when, in reality, a woman might want to come home and be beta and the man might fucking want to be alpha in a very thoughtful way and create a very nice relationship inside the home, even though the fucking wife is a high powered attorney in downtown New York City and the guy is a goddamn electrician for the union. Like who fucking cares?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, no, I think I, and it's a very good point because, with women, with the way that women are succeeding in the workplace, and like just different dynamics, you're totally right. But, like, how do you then marry up these sort of like generational norms and bring people together? It's another level of what needs to line up when you're looking for someone too, and so it can get so frustrating looking for all these like pieces to fit together when you've just added this whole nother level of complexity that we haven't really known before. And so that's probably another piece of the answer to like why people are choosing to stay single. Because you can end up just getting so frustrated trying to find these things. And yet a dating app may tell you X, y, z, this is what I'm looking for, this is blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, but there's so much to it and also, like I don't know, I just you can know too much about someone before you meet them from a dating app and not, and then it's nice to filter to to some extent, but then it can be a frustrating process and if it doesn't work out because of all these things that are shifting, you might just be like you know what I'm good with being single. I'm good with enjoying the people that are in my life and if that comes, it's great, and if it doesn't, okay, like I want to cause. That's where I'm at, like I.

Speaker 2:

I, in my late twenties, made a very conscious decision to focus on my career instead of finding someone to have kids with and congratulations. Didn't have kids. I don't know kids. I don't know. I don't know if it's a congratulations or not, but I like I might have kids, they might be rolling around hey I I've been trying to date single dads.

Speaker 2:

That isn't working out super great for me, but aside from that I've opened up to single mothers good job, there you go as long as there's only one kid in their 50-50.

Speaker 1:

Oh, shut up, no, that's my rule, there's your rule. I like it um we should create an app that's more specific uh god, more specific.

Speaker 2:

Oh gosh, I don't know. I don't know if that's good or bad.

Speaker 1:

Maybe just different criteria no, I have an idea for an app.

Speaker 2:

I'll tell you offline okay, I have one idea for an app.

Speaker 1:

I'll tell you offline. Okay, I have one too, but it's all our listeners.

Speaker 2:

They might steal it. Um, I do think there's so many pieces that need to line up, and the older we get, the more it just it becomes exhausting sometimes and it's I just want to enjoy life. So, oh, sorry. So I'm going to go back to what I was saying when I was in my twenties. I was like I need to just focus on my career. I'm going to have something more tangible If I focus my efforts on that, cause I wasn't getting anywhere like dating at this point in time, and so I did that, and then I don't know, ended up in another relationship a few years after that and that didn't work out.

Speaker 2:

I'm at the same point where.

Speaker 2:

So I've I've focused so much on my career that I was criticized by my last serious relationship and several other people I was trying to date for being too busy, like with my career, with other things that were happening in my life, like with my career, with other things that were happening in my life.

Speaker 2:

So when COVID came around, I was like, great, okay, this kind of cleared out part of my schedule, like maybe I need to just calm things down and actually leave a space for dating so that when I meet someone, there is that space and, man, this is such a waste of time. I've been doing this for four years with nothing to really show for it. I've met probably two, actually, no, not probably. There are two people I've met off dating apps that are still in my life as like friends and that I'm so thankful for. But, man, that was like a lot of work to come out of. It was just like a lot of energy and time and I just don't know that's like the right focus. So I'm back to just going to do my thing and refocus that energy on something else. And it's simple, it's as simple as that.

Speaker 1:

It's the reason that people are choosing life without kids or a committed partner is one some of them aren't choosing. It's just the way it ended up. And two, you get to a point where the bar gets set higher idea of having kids. The pressure to be in a committed relationship, particularly if you're financially stable, isn't there. And this is why I keep talking about situationships is because I think you can have very thoughtful, meaningful situationships with the opposite sex or the same sex if you're gay and you can you, can you?

Speaker 1:

we should be talking about embracing situationships and not let's not as a community, our community, the only lone community. Let's not make that a negative term, because I think that the idea because it's so hard to be in a relationship, to get to a place where you're that vulnerable my opinion, my definition of relationship, particularly a committed relationship, particularly at this age, is complete vulnerability something that you're completely vulnerable to.

Speaker 1:

They know your insecurities, like all this stuff. It's way different than just having sex, cuddling, blah, blah blah. But there's all these situationships in the me, in the middle, before, in between those relationships that can be very meaningful. And if you go into the dating world with the expectation of getting to know somebody and the next stage is a situationship which forget about social media. To me, a situationship is I respect this person, I'm gonna be vulnerable enough with this person, I want to get to know this person because that's the way I've been approaching these things in my life and some of these people have turned into my friends. Some of these people life and some of these people have turned into my friends. Some of these people follow the podcast. Some of these people I have sex with. Some of them I haven't had sex with. Some of them like, but there's all this respect and understanding.

Speaker 2:

I think, as long as I think you are, you approach these, though, these situations or situationships, with honesty, and that, I think, is the most important part, and if it's not working, you cut it off. I think where it goes south is like when you start to play games or drag it out or lead someone on, or like you're unsure or you're just like trying to get something out of it, and so that's where it can go south and why it can leave like a bad taste in someone's mouth about wanting to stay in the game sometimes. But I definitely think honesty is good in that situation, and you don't. It doesn't always have to end in a relationship. You can enjoy someone's company and enjoy whatever they brought to you in that time, and if the time comes to an end, just you end it.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I like that. I think this is the time now where we ask ChatGDP what she thinks.

Speaker 2:

Oh boy.

Speaker 1:

Doodle-oo, doodle-oo, doodle-oo, doodle-oo. Do you know what time it is? It's gdp advice time, story time. We're gonna get our advice from chat gdp. So we asked chat gdp 4.0 now, as of yesterday, she just upgraded yep, I Did. We ask her. We said why are people over 30 choosing to not be married or have kids today, and can you summarize in 100 words and make it funny, please? People over 30 today are saying I do to careers, financial stability and Netflix binges instead of traditional marriage and kids. Who needs a spouse when you have a cat and Wi-Fi, higher education and economic uncertainty have people waiting longer, while evolving social norms means no one's side-editing your single status. Plus, the world's a bit of a hot mess right now, no kidding. So some are thinking twice about adding mini-me's to the mix with options like cohabitation and advanced reproductive techs. Why rush? It's all about living your best life solo, partnered or with just a fur baby. There you have it, folks. That's another episode of the only alone podcast. Thank you, emanuela. I appreciate you as a co-host.

Speaker 2:

Thank you, Joel.

Speaker 1:

Remember, guys, we really, particularly in the early stages, we need you to follow, share, subscribe, do all the things. Give us five stars, give us a glowing three-paragraph review. Please Follow us on social media. Share our posts. Laugh Comment. Follow us on social media. Share our posts. Laugh Comment. Get into the dialogue we can be found on Instagram. At Only Alone, you can email us at Joel.

Speaker 1:

At Only Alone Podcast, you can find me also on the TikTok, and we both have social, like personal social too, and we're on Facebook. If you still use that fucking barbaric, ancient fucking name, we have to keep it, because that's how instagram works apparently so please follow us, and we don't have a tagline yet. We're working on it, but this sasquatch is out. This unicorn is out too. Bye.

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Joel Poppert

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