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A Candid Chat about the Evolving Journey of Successful Woman ft. Alyssa Samuel

• Joel Poppert • Season 1 • Episode 9

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Embark on an enlightening journey with Alyssa Samuel, a seasoned corporate M&A attorney and all around boss of a woman! In our latest episode, Alyssa opens up about the triumphs and trials of a successful single woman navigating an evolving landscape. With a backdrop of her academic tenure at Denver University Sturm College of Law, she delves into both her professional and personal pursuits – a mix of marathon running, yoga, and her dedication to animal rescue. Her story isn't just about professional milestones; it's a tapestry woven with personal passions and a candid reflection on the journey many woman endure.

Society's perception of women in power is ever-evolving, with pop culture icons steering the conversation. This episode contrasts the indelible marks left by Madonna and Taylor Swift, two trailblazers who have shaped our notions of femininity and strength. We dissect how Madonna's dare-to-defy attitude in the 80s and 90s bolstered women during a pivotal era of workplace equality battles, while Swift's narrative of vulnerability and romance might herald a quest for balance. The dialogue ventures further, stirring up thoughts on how socio-economic advancements and the omnipresence of social media sway public sensitivity towards today's female icons.

As the curtain falls on our profound exchange with Alyssa Samuel, the episode serves as a gentle reminder that your voice and story are paramount. We encourage interaction, eagerly inviting potential guests to connect and share their individual journeys. The conversation with Alyssa may have ended, but the dialogue within our community continues to thrive. Thank you for joining this exploratory venture where personal anecdotes intermingle with cultural dissection, and here's to the continual pursuit of authentic self-expression and empowerment.

Check Out Alyssa's latest article, "Sex, Drugs, Rock and Roll: What Madonna, Taylor Swift, and the "Queen of Pop" title says about Feminism and the State of Drug Policy" 

How to Engage with Us

Thanks for joining the Owning Alone community, I certainly appreciate you!

Speaker 1:

Hey y'all. It's your favorite middle-aged Sasquatch. You know the one that's small giant with the epic beard game and recording live from my Sasquatch Cave here in sunny Denver, colorado. You're listening to another episode of the Owning Alone podcast, watching us virtually from the Golden Gate City, san Francisco, california. I'm excited to introduce a good friend of mine and an all-around badass boss of a woman, alyssa Samuel.

Speaker 1:

Alyssa is a California native but spent over a decade here in Colorado, where I got to know her initially when we were still crazy kids and she was attending Denver University Sturm College of Law. She is now nationally recognized corporate M&A attorney with Hush Blackwell and specializes in cannabis law. She is a marathon runner, dog mom, one of the sweetest humans I know, and also a highly successful, accredited woman. I'm going to allow her to elaborate more on her own and stop beating up her profile, but I brought a list on the show today not only to share her story, but also to discuss what it's like to navigate the world as a high profile, successful, professional and single woman in today's world. She has an elegant and articulate voice in this regard and I'm excited to have her share her perspective with the community. So with that, alyssa, welcome to the show. Please tell us more about yourself.

Speaker 2:

Thanks, joel. I'm excited to be on the show, and there's nothing more that I would enjoy more than sitting and catching up with my friend Joel, and it makes sense that we would want to share that with the world through a podcast so that other people can share my myths. I'll do my best to live up to the fantastic intro that you just gave me. I have navigated my career in probably an unconventional way. I don't know that I would consider myself a high profile, but I'm very flattered that you think so. I am a corporate emanant hernia at Hush Blackwell. I have typically focused my practice on cannabis. I have recently moved more into hospitality and general food and beverage. I enjoy my career, even with some of the unexpected twists and turns that have come along. I really do enjoy what I do, and so I'm excited to get to talk to you about what that has looked like and share any nuggets of wisdom that I have with maybe some younger females that are starting to navigate similar journeys.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I think this is a really good voice to talk to, not just our peers or your peers, but also younger women, to tell your story and what you see I've obviously been. We are friends and I've gotten to watch you over the last 15 years grow in your career, when meeting you as a student and to where you are now. I have to say personally, colorado misses you. I know San Francisco is not a tough place to be. California is a beautiful place. Before we dive in, can you tell us a little bit about your passions and your hobbies and maybe how you, besides doing law, how you spend your time? I know there's a couple of dogs running around there too, and you're a pretty good dog mom.

Speaker 2:

Thanks, joel. I don't know that my hobbies have changed all that much since those days in 2005 when we first met in Denver. I still run almost every day when I need to recharge, all due yoga or something. I'm very body centered. I try to mix cross training like swimming, or some other kinds of exercise in as well. When I can get up to the mountains, I enjoy skiing. I miss Colorado terribly. Sometimes there's wonderful, wonderful things that the state of California has to offer, but Colorado will always have a special place in my heart.

Speaker 2:

We had such wonderful times in the mountains and some of the ski houses that we did. It's pretty special. Even stepping away, I look back at how lucky we were to have that opportunity at that particular time in Colorado when it was so accessible and easy to get to the mountains we could get epic passes for $349, which is crazy. Thinking about it, I feel very, very fortunate that I had that opportunity to ever live that close to the mountains and be able to ski every weekend and have a group of friends to share that with and just experience Even experiencing Colorado as a visitor. I think we're lucky to have experienced at that level at that particular time. I feel very, very fortunate and I do feel that that has become a really big part of who I am as a person.

Speaker 2:

Enjoying the outdoors and taking the dogs out. I do spend a lot of time getting up to Yosemite or whatever national parks are around. This last summer I did Creator Lake National Park and Mount Rainier National Park on the way up to Canada for a family trip. We do go to Yosemite every once in a while. I'll go to Mount Tam, take the boys to Mount Tam and Marin. There are two dogs, jack and Gus, who are both rescues.

Speaker 2:

Anyone who knows me knows I have a huge soft spot for animals and animal rescue in particular. Jack was a foster and Gus was a stray. I occasionally pick up other animals on different trips. So Christmas Eve this year I showed up at my sister's house in LA with a dog I found at a gas station in Bakersfield that went to a shelter right away. So animals are. I've always had a lot of animals. As a kid I had animals. When we lived in Colorado we were lucky enough to have friends that had fantastic dogs that I used to take care of. Then, now that I have my own, I don't know why, for whatever reason, I connect with them and feel more at peace when animals are around. How our society treats animals in a lot of ways is really saddening to me on a lot of levels.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, no, I get that. Yeah, you've always loved dogs. I know you were part of the bar area, which we won't go into, but for those that are listening, that new bar, it was a whole era of time. So, starting to move into things a little bit, I like to open with an icebreaker. My icebreaker, I guess for you, is what particular piece of advice radically altered your life, or a book that you can share with the listeners.

Speaker 2:

As a kid I was a voracious reader, so I don't think I could pick any one book that really impacted my life in any particular way. But if I had to pick a book, as a kid I read the Once and Future King. It was a book about loosely based around the tale of King Arthur, but it was more philosophical and centered around might versus right and how rulers should rule and really what it means to lead, and that had an impact on me. That was the first book that came to mind, particularly, I think, in an election year when we're choosing our nation's leaders, and what that means to be a leader, or as you move into phases of your career and you see people around you leading teams and what that looks like and what kind of leader you aspire to be, what kinds of values you want to help the teams around you build, how you want to treat others and what it means to be part of a team or organization or a community. I think those things are really important.

Speaker 2:

But I think the second part of the question, the best advice I ever got, was from a.

Speaker 2:

He's a cousin of my mom's cousin's husband, so a very removed family member that appears at a family function that I'll see every once every 15 or 20 years. So right after I graduated from law school, there was a family wedding in Idaho and I was at the family wedding and this gentleman was there. He's a professor at Stanford Law and he gave me the best advice that I ever received, that I've taken to heart and has really served me well. And he just said whatever you do in your legal career, don't focus on the money, don't focus on the title, focus on if you're doing interesting work and if you're always focused on doing interesting work, the rest will fall into place. His point was not that it was specific advice for lawyers, but lawyers do tend to get very caught up in titles and salary and am I going to make partner with this class year or not and those types of things, at the end of the day, don't really translate to happiness or fulfillment in your career.

Speaker 1:

I think everybody just thinks it's like suits.

Speaker 2:

And I've actually never watched suits, so I know.

Speaker 1:

Oh, you don't know, harvey Spector.

Speaker 2:

No, I don't know. I generally know the premise of the show, but I have not actually ever watched an episode of suits. I know Meghan Markle was on suits and I know that generally it's about a guy that's not a lawyer, that is pretending to be a lawyer.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I mean, that's every man's dream to get to the top without the work. Right, it's just before.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think there's something about that, though that never really sits right with me. That's why I've never really followed the show, is? I just don't like that idea.

Speaker 1:

No, I mean, it's a soap opera for sure. It's a modern soap opera. I watched it but I don't have kids, I'm not married, I have a lot of time to watch TV and I actually do read a lot. But I got sucked into that one and then I was talking to another lawyer friend about it and I was like how accurate is this? And he's like with some of the bigger firms sometimes the drama can spill over, but obviously it's a little bit more accentuated.

Speaker 1:

But that's not the topic of the show. So let's, I appreciate you sharing that. It's pretty obvious that you've worked really hard to get where you are. I also have always sort of admired you for your convictions and your confidence in leading the life that you want to live and I just think you're a really appropriate person to sort of dive into this topic about women, single women, professional women and sort of.

Speaker 1:

You recently wrote an article which I'll obviously link in the description of my show where people can check it out, but very well articulated article titled Sex, drugs, rock and Roll, what Madonna, taylor Swift and the Queen of Pop. Title says about feminism in the state of drug policy. Now, the show is not entirely about drug policy. But I think the bridge between the two and your sort of comparison and contrast of these two very significant pop stars is very interesting, and I think it ties really well into this story of the expectations, I guess, and the journey of women as they become more successful and the boundaries or the barriers or the friction that's sort of put in front of them as they get more successful. And just, I don't want to create boundaries around the conversation, but can you sort of talk about why you wrote that article and then just what's it like to be a successful woman in this world? I think that's enough for me.

Speaker 2:

I was compelled to write it after I went to the Madonna concert a few weeks ago when she was in San Francisco and it was fantastic. I really enjoyed it. But I couldn't help but watch Madonna and think to myself we were a little bit behind the Madonna age, born in 83, so she was already very popular. But still in the 90s she was pretty popular and particularly if you went to Catholic school, like a prayer was really really racy and you know. But that was a pop star that teenage girls in the 80s and early 90s flopped to her blonde ambition tour and she was very much at the Taylor Swift level and was anointed the Queen of Pop and has held that title for a long time. But she's a very, very different artist than Taylor Swift who just this year, you know, surpassed many, many records with her Eres tour. And, to be clear, I love both artists. I think they're both wonderful and have a place and there's a reason why they're so successful. But they're very, very different. And I had to think to myself what does that say about where we are as a society? That 20 or 30 years ago we had this pop icon that was breaking barriers with someone of a political activist and that was what was really popular. That's what people wanted to see. And Taylor Swift image is very different. It's more wholesome. You know songs about true love and getting whist off on a white horse and the whole thing, and neither one is necessarily good or bad. That's not that. That wasn't the point of the article. It's just different and, as art imitates life and the people that we anoint, as these icons reflect on what is going on in society, what does that say about us? Is it a good thing or is it a bad thing? Is it a neutral thing? And I think a part of it is.

Speaker 2:

If you rewind back to the 80s and 90s, women are really still forging their way into the work world. You didn't see a lot of women in upper management or in partner level roles and leadership roles. It wasn't a priority for organizations to have women represented. It wasn't even that long before that that women couldn't get a loan to start a business on their own, like Mrs Fields. Cookies was an example. That was a Bay Area startup food brand and Mrs Fields was the wife of I think he was a banker or someone in finance, someone in Silicon Valley, and she, to start that company had to have her husband on the loans or they would not give her as a female loan, which is crazy to think now if so many female startups and founders and executives.

Speaker 2:

We've come a long way since then, but it makes sense that at that time to little girls or to women, it was really empowering to see someone like Madonna out there breaking social barriers, full sexual but also express yourself was really also about women in the workplace. It wasn't just about anything sexual. A lot of her music did get into sexual and religious issues and mores and breaking boundaries there, but a lot of things were really just about women having a voice and being empowered and that was a really powerful thing at the time. But it seems like we've shifted and now the fantasy has changed it's. Can we be singing love songs and walking around in flowy, beautiful dresses that are it's much more feminine? But that narrative has seemed to change and it also is happening at a time that we're also seeing this really interesting trend towards tradwives or stay at home girlfriends on Instagram and that kind of influencing that you know, or women saying you know, maybe this work thing wasn't such a good idea, maybe do we want to go back?

Speaker 2:

Or is it more of just, you know, society wanting to find a balance? Are we always just seeking balance, you know, do people in really powerful positions? So, speaking of shows I don't know if you've ever watched billions, you know the one of the main characters on that show is an AG and he has a fetish for SNM. He likes to be dominated. So like that tends to be something really powerful People sometimes want, you know, behind closed doors, because they want to be dominated. So is it? Are we always just sort of seeking balance and seeking to balance things out? You know, maybe, maybe that's where that that is, but I was just really getting curious around these themes and what that might mean about where we are as a culture.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's an interesting. It's interesting to see, going back to Madonna and Taylor Swift, you would think that you would think that, since Madonna laid the tracks for expressing herself, doing what she wants you know she, she owned her, her image and what she wanted to put out there that you fast forward several decades and now you've got. I mean not that maybe Taylor Swift doesn't want to fully express herself or maybe she is, that's really a question that she can answer but clearly we know what the repercussions would be if Taylor Swift decided to start doing what Madonna did her whole career. I mean, it's, it's. We can't even she can't even, you know be innocently in love with a football player without somebody making a comment about it.

Speaker 1:

So I guess, sort of like, do you think this is this? Do you think that this is a, this is an expression of the sensitivity around females starting to really elevate in terms of the economy? I mean, there's, there's obviously friction. There's a lot of men and even some women that don't like the idea of the vertical mobilization of women which is happening, whether we like it or not. I did it is, it is, it is, and it's interesting that maybe the response is to try to censor powerful women wherever they can, and do you see that? Do you think that's there's a there's maybe a tie there between that? That's what's happening? Or do you just think we're just sensitive as a public period and the social media and everything else, that it's just like we can't can't turn a corner when you're famous without getting yelled at from both sides? I mean ask Kate.

Speaker 2:

Middleton about that. She can't disappear for a few months without him.

Speaker 1:

Yeah right.

Speaker 2:

All of you can't go completely berserk. I think it's good that we ask these questions. I think it's important to stay curious and keep asking why are we the way that we are particularly around this issue? I think it's partially like you said. Whether we like it or not, women are being elevated. We're seeing more and more women graduate from college, more and more women going to graduate school, more and more women taking on management positions, and that's also happening at the same time that there's a lot of other shifts in our in our culture, and I think we're sort of redefining our general roles as as a society as a whole. I think that can be scary. I think that can be really scary for a lot of people.

Speaker 2:

In a lot of ways, I saw my dad go off to work and be a provider for the family, and now that that might not be the case for me.

Speaker 2:

What does it mean to be a man, what does it mean to be a woman?

Speaker 2:

And that some of those things are biologically entrenched, some of those things are socially entrenched.

Speaker 2:

I remember when I was a younger attorney and I did family law for quite some time, I was always very interested in how biology and social expectations played into that process.

Speaker 2:

I remember several divorces that I assisted with where the husband was willing to give money he didn't have every month, like in promising for first child support or maintenance, because it was so important to me was to make sure that his wife and children were cared for. But at the same time, like the judge that I clerked for, told me once, if you ever order maintenance or child support for a woman to pay, you will never see a more unhappy woman. And it was very, very rare at that time for you to see maintenance awarded or a woman would have to pay it. And same thing with women Most women, if they are, even no matter how demanding their career is, it's a very hard thing for them to deal with, for them not to be the primary parent, or at least 50-50. That's changing a little bit, but those are our roles, that it's important to ask the question is it biological or is it social?

Speaker 1:

I think there's always gonna be. Obviously there's biological differences between men and women, and there's obviously social differences too, but obviously things are changing and I think you make some good points.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and I think it's important for us to look at is what part of these gender roles are biological and natural and how important are they. Where is this sort of movement back to trad wives and stay at home girlfriends? Where's that coming from? Why is that an appealing idea and is there anything wrong with that? Necessarily, I mean, I don't see any reason to really get fired up over it if that really makes someone happy just because I chose a different path. I think that empowering people to choose their own paths, whatever that might be, is really what's important. But there is I was reading an article on this about the financial dangers of this movement. Moving back to any sort of situation, or even in an individualized context, where one partner in a marriage or relationship has all the financial power is really disenfranchising for the other partner, man or woman, and that can be. I think it can be dangerous, but I think for some people can be a little freeing too. I think that's a little bit of where that movement comes from, and I had mentioned earlier.

Speaker 2:

There's a level of vulnerability that I think people crave in their romantic or sexual relationships, and I think that those themes play into that too. I think you could probably do a whole podcast on vulnerability and it's how it plays into relationships just in and of itself, but I think that's where some of it comes from. And then there's other themes that I got into in my article that had to deal with a book that I also read in college that was called the Beauty Myth, and in looking at some of my Taylor Swift, she's almost an embodiment of the concept that Naomi Wolf talks about in that book, and she talks about how, as women, become more successful in society. And keep in mind the context of this book, this book was written in the 1990s, so we were still in a very different spot, and so maybe some of these themes have probably expanded from there quite a bit.

Speaker 2:

Her hypothesis that she delved into was that as women become more successful and more visible in the workplace, that beauty and looks tend to be used against them more, and so you'll. You see women sort of walking this tightrope of all. You need to be beautiful, but if you are, then you must not be smart, and it gets into sort of the diatribe that, or the soliloquy that America Ferreira does in the Barbie movie. That became really, really popular for a lot of women. It really resonated for a lot of women of we have to. We're in this very, very narrow space where you need to be assertive because you have to be able to advance, but don't be too assertive. It's not that's threatening. You know, nobody likes that. You need to be attractive, but don't be too attractive, because people won't think that you're smart, and so that is exactly what Naomi Wolf was talking about in the book.

Speaker 1:

Is it like? Is it very sorry to interrupt you, but is it? Yeah, so you're obviously a very you're a very beautiful woman and do you find it? Do you find like is one? It's like it sounds like women have to thread this needle unnecessarily thread this needle in their careers and in life in general. And do you find you're obviously very intelligent, you're very successful. Do you like? And beautiful? Do you find yourself getting mansplained more than other women or like? Do you like? It's just you hit it right out the nail. I think that no matter what you do as a woman, there's gonna be a certain subset of the professional population that's going to be judging you in some regard whatsoever. It sounds very frustrating.

Speaker 2:

And I think that it's.

Speaker 1:

I think that men don't have a lot of awareness around it and of course we have less awareness around it. We're not dealing with it, but I think there's very rare circumstances where men get mansplained by another man and I find it very frustrating when I get mansplained, so I don't. I guess it's like a very different dynamic.

Speaker 2:

I think it's a very different dynamic. I mean I do think it's really to practice the Taylor Swift thing. I mean I think Taylor Swift is an embodiment of that. I mean we have put her. She is in such a narrow mode of functioning that she can't date anyone without the world melting down, the NFL actually melting down. But I mean she needs to be this like wholesome. She. You know she has it all. She's this, this is a business mogul, but she also is extremely attractive but also really wholesome, and she very intentionally chooses. You know how politically involved she's going to be, what statements she's going to make. The calculation that she has to take as to what will be a good business move or not for her, it is beyond as much as further beyond, I think, what a lot of women or even a lot of celebrities do. It's very. She's done a very, very good job of navigating that and that's extremely impressive. But it will be interesting to see that now that she's sort of becoming a little bit more human, we're seeing the side of her where she has a personal life. And you know she's in her 30s now. She's not a young adult anymore and it'll be interesting to see if she starts expressing herself in a different way and if she and how people respond to that.

Speaker 2:

But to your question of do you attractive men's playing more than unattractive women, I have no idea. I do know there have been times where I felt like I was, I was being mansplained. I did not appreciate it. But I do think that I have to be fair to men. I think most men are getting much better about that, particularly in our generation, and even not in our generation. I've seen men in the workplace handle situation poorly and respond very positively to feedback from females on their team that their reaction was not appropriate, and I've been really impressed by that particular hush. I think there are a lot of men that really try and are really open to changing and improving and making sure that women have voices on their teams and that nobody is feeling like they're mansplained or being shut down.

Speaker 2:

And myself I yes, I think being a woman comes with some negatives sometimes, but I also can say that I've had a lot of men in my career and in my life in general that have really helped me and have really wanted me to succeed. Like I cannot say that as a female, I feel like the cards are totally stacked against us. I absolutely don't think that. I think there are challenges sometimes, but I think there's challenges for men too that take a different form.

Speaker 2:

Like I was on the phone not too long ago with a colleague who was in house and we talked about my career path a little bit and how I sort of rerouted later in my career in lateral, didn't to do corporate law. So I took a step back to do that, and his reaction to that was interesting. He said, oh, I as a man I could never do that. And I said Well, why not? You know, why is it more acceptable for a woman to do that? And he said, well, because as men we learned very young that there's a hierarchy and a pecking order and if you are later in your career in your lateral and lower than your lower on that pecking order and just the other men won't respect you and it just doesn't work. So I think being a woman can actually be a little freeing in that sense too, that you have a little bit more flexibility, I think. What are your thoughts on that?

Speaker 1:

No, I mean I tend to agree, but I still like go back to the Madonna, taylor Swift thing and I mean I don't know Taylor Swift but I feel like she either is doing exactly what she wants to do on every given day or she spends she's up at night feeling very constrained and we don't know, because we don't know Taylor Swift. But I just wonder if Madonna Madonna just chose to make that her image and to be her brand and to own that and be that was her, that was what worked for her, or if she was. I don't know enough about Madonna, but are we going to see Taylor Swift turn into Madonna because she's been in this box and she's been told what she should do, what she shouldn't do, that she should influence politics and she shouldn't date so and so, and blah, blah, and eventually Taylor Swift's going to turn loser shit and be like I'm fucking it, I'm going to do whatever I want to do, because you're right, I mean, I think it's. I think that at the end of the day, I guess this sort of transition to a question I had is like what should the playing field look like? Like what is you know? We sort of touched on this in the beginning that like things are changing right.

Speaker 1:

We're going to wake up in a world that I think in 10, 15 years where it's very, very common for women to be in a lot of executive leadership positions. They're more, they're going to acquire more and more wealth relative to men and it's going to change the dynamic between across the board. It's not just wealth, but also like dating and relationships. The roles are going to change between men and women and relationships that you know women are, maybe men stay at home or women are the breadwinner, and like people are going to have to deal with that, both men and women. And so like, like why do you, do you think we should even like, is it? Are we going to get to a point where this conversation like becomes comical in 20 years or do you think we're going to keep? It's going to keep going on and on. I mean thousands of years of this. I mean of the gender roles as they were.

Speaker 1:

But I I find it encouraging but I also see again the example between Madonna and Taylor that there's the closer we get to equality, the more friction exists. It's the same thing we're seeing also in a on the political scale right, the closer we get to social liberation, the more that certain groups push back and create friction, right. So, and then social media creates this hype around it, but I guess, I don't know. I'm kind of like all over the world, I guess, but what is the? What should the playing field look like, I guess, for for women, particularly professional women in the world?

Speaker 2:

You know, I think we've gotten to this. You know, as you can hear, Jack has an opinion on it.

Speaker 1:

He has an opinion on most things. Jack, you can say something if you want.

Speaker 2:

You know, I don't, I don't, I certainly don't have the answers to this. I think that we're, as a culture, we're figuring this out as we go. I think we're much closer than we've ever been as far as women having opportunities in the workplace and having visibility. I think the things that we're working on as a culture are more nuanced and they are. You know, while we may be able to make partner in a law firm pretty easily I mean not easily, it's never going to be easy but we don't have the barriers that women did 30 years ago. While we might have that path, there's also still well, women still take on the majority of, you know, household chores. If they're in a relationship, they tend not to have a stay at home partner that's going to make sure that, you know, everything is taken care of so they can focus on that 100%. That does happen sometimes, but that's not, you know, the norm. Maybe we switch more to that. Maybe some women don't necessarily want that and they want to stay home with their children. Maybe there is a biological need and you know, some women are more comfortable with that. I think there needs to be, I think it needs to be okay and it needs to not be a statement for where people are in their career and how they divide their household chores. I think that's where we're moving is, to where people kind of do what works for them and that's okay, and it doesn't need to be a statement or a life choice.

Speaker 2:

You know, it may be where, you know, maybe a husband focuses on his career for five years and you know the wife stays home and then, you know, they switch roles. Or, you know, maybe the economy does something weird and one of them's job isn't as profitable anymore so the other one decides to do it. Or maybe, you know, couples don't have kids. You know, I mean, that actually seems to be almost more of an issue. Where I feel a little bit more isolated is if you don't have children, you're more of an outlier in the professional workplace. You know people that have kids. It's like, oh well, I need an income, you know I need. I can't handle that because I have to pick the kids up. Or I want to take a step back because I have kids. And you know, being single or not having children seems to be more isolating than being a female, I would say.

Speaker 1:

So it's interesting that you say that. I followed this girl on Instagram. She's got quite a few followers. She's late 30s, maybe even 40. And she decided she looks like she's decided not to have kids. She's traveling the world, she seems to be living her best life, she's an influencer and I really enjoy her content. I enjoy her pictures, her videos and she's not super controversial.

Speaker 1:

But recently she made one sort of simple comment about, you know, choosing not to have kids and living this life, and it wasn't a dig at people that have gotten married and have kids, and I think you know pretty well that you know, at our age there's kind of two different paths to take and there's not one that's better than the other. And she got admonished, so much so that she ended up writing an article for the today, usa Today or something, or the Today Show or something, and it was really thoughtful, well articulated article about how negative people were to her and telling her that she's going to regret it in her 40s and she's, you know, like, basically, you know, lazy and blah, blah, blah. And she got called kind of everything, not just from men but also from women, for the life that she was leading, which seems really unnecessary, and I guess it kind of begs the question of why are people so scared of women being able to make whatever decision they fucking want for themselves? Like why is that such a big deal?

Speaker 2:

I mean, I think for each individual person there's a lot to unpack there and anytime somebody else's life choice has triggers that kind of a reaction from someone, there's something else going on there and it's usually something along the lines of I want to justify my own choices here as to why I made the better choice. Or, for men, I think it is there are some themes of anger and resentment towards, you know, women not being available. I know I've talked to several therapists that you know say there's a lot of frustration for men and that women, you know, kind of no longer need them or might not choose them. Or, in now that we have all of these apps, a lot of men are really frustrated with the dating apps because it's the numbers are really skewed towards women and I'm getting very frustrated. I know I've experienced some negativity on the dating apps, you know, or some men that came out a little bit strong.

Speaker 2:

That comes from that. So I think there's a combination of reasons why, but some of it might boil down to maybe we haven't moved very far from, you know, when Hillary Clinton took so much criticism when she said, you know, very openly, during the first Clinton campaign. Well, do you expect me to just say I'm in and make cookies and you know, she for decades never looked that statement down. So I mean, maybe we just haven't moved that far past that, maybe we'll never fully move past that totally.

Speaker 1:

I hope we do so. Where does Madonna and Taylor Swift, I guess, fall into this as we end this discussion and this sort of idea of who's the queen of pop?

Speaker 2:

There is this sort of ongoing debate. When I was asking this question about who really is the queen of pop, is it Madonna or Taylor Swift and that really wasn't my initial inquiry, it was really what does it say about us? They? Both of them are really popular in their respective areas. There is a large online debate about who is the queen of pop. Is it Taylor Swift or is it Madonna, or is it someone like Beyonce or Rihanna? And Taylor Swift was actually asked that question because she did base a part of her 1989 album.

Speaker 2:

She took a lot of inspiration from Madonna and she has said very positive things about Madonna, but she's also said I'm not going to be the next Madonna. I don't want to be the next Madonna. She's a different person, madonna. She has different things that drive her, the different things to make her happy, and in that interview she said I will always just be the girl this writing songs in my room. That's what makes Taylor Swift happy. That's what Taylor Swift wants to do.

Speaker 2:

Taylor Swift doesn't want to push social boundaries. She doesn't want to do these other things, and the point of my article wasn't that we should have a pop icon that does a, b and C, or that these two women are the same in any way. The point of it was, you know, what does it say about us? That our pop icons look very different.

Speaker 2:

How would the 1980s, reagan era United States have reacted to Taylor Swift? How would the 2024 era act to, you know, react to Madonna? You know who she was and we kind of have, you know, a modernized version of Madonna, but we, you know what, if it had been reversed and we only started to see, you know, her presence in the way that we know her, you know, come out in 2024? I think that they're two different things and they're two different animals. They're, they're not, they don't want to be the same person Madonna loves. She's a provocateur. She loves pushing boundaries as what she lives to do, and being politically active is something that drives her. Taylor Swift has shown an interest in encouraging people to get on vote for who they want to vote for, and even just her very, very minimal political statements have been met with some serious backlash on Fox News.

Speaker 1:

So I like to I like to end episodes with asking my guests If they have any advice for the younger generation. I think, in the case of this podcast, maybe some advice from you to younger women. Or imagine talking to your 20 something year old self.

Speaker 2:

I think my advice would be just stay true to yourself, figure out who you are, what's important to you, and then tune out any negativity. Because there is we, you and I have discussed there's. There's probably increasingly going to be people critical of you, know, women who do their own thing and who seem happy. You know, sometimes people will be upset with you just for for being you and being happy, and that's okay. You have to just learn to just let it roll off. So just you know, run your own race, do your own thing and try to tune out any, any negativity that's directed your way.

Speaker 1:

Well, alyssa, I think that brings us to the end of our show. I really appreciate you. It's been so wonderful to have this conversation with you and to catch up and to see your face. It's been a long time. I hope you end up here in Colorado again here soon. Thank you to all my listeners and, of course, I can't do the show without you. I want to hear your stories, I want your questions. If you think you'd be a good guest, please reach out to me. You can DM me on Instagram at owning alone, or you can email me directly at Joel at owning alone podcast. I'm also on the tic tac now. Please follow me. Joel Popper and I also have a by monthly podcast happy hour. You can find it on meetup. I'd love to see you if you're in the Denver area and, with that, have a great night. This Sasquatch is out.

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Joel Poppert

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